Forum > Tuber's secrets > thread

I will comment on the end first, because it is easiest to respond to: there are a lot of Christians that are following the rules. If they don't, they have not understood their own religion. "Have love for your neighbour as yourself" is the greatest rule (Matthew 22:39). There are many Christians who don't follow this rule, but for me this is the core of Christianity, and nearly everything else derives from it.
As far as I know, most other religions have a similar attitude. Even LaVeyan Satanism has fairly peaceful principles.

Now to your main paragraph... It is an interesting view, first of all. I can't really agree, but it is difficult to find arguments against your thesis. The electricity example works for every religious concept, so it is a good support for your idea as well as for the Christian concept of God. As you say, both ideas are very different - which might be my problem because I have lived with and believed in the Christian God for years.
One thing I dislike is the following sentence: It makes everything on Earth grow; it makes all the atoms of an object to be connected to one another and form that object; it makes different laws work. It doesn't matter how you call it - it IS there.
While I agree with the last part ("It doesn't matter how you call it - it IS there"), the former part is a stronger contradiction to science than what I believe in. I think you know the old problem - "Darwin has disproved the Bible". In my view there is no contradiction between Darwinism and Christianity; and just a week ago in a lecture about neurobiology and freewill I learned how to put it in good words: Philosophy differenciates between reasons and causes (freely translated, I don't know if these words are the scientifically correct ones). Transferred to our topic, science asks for reasons why the world works as it does (mainly natural science; others social sciences and humanities work a bit differently) while religion asks for causes. In the sentence I quoted, you are mixing this up by asking for reasons from a religious point of view. I'd say that humanity has learned to divide between reasons and causes during the last few hundred years (starting with Galilei and Kepler). I don't want to call you medieval but this is the reason why I don't accept your argument. Religion should not interfer with science in any way. They can and shall coexist.

If you see your concept of "God" as something natural in the way you describe it, this also means that your God could not plan anything, right? If it is a kind of energy (or something different, but similarly diffuse), it can't have a mind. But then again, your God consists only of a few natural laws that have not been discovered yet - and when they are discovered, God literally becomes calculable. This would lead to having no God at all. I want my God to be supernatural - at least the same way that human feelings and decisions are supernatural: They can't be predicted, and they won't ever become predictable. Of course, they are part of nature, but they are not completely understandable. (Though psychology tries )

I find this very interesting, please continue writing Or "talk more about this stuff", as you say.

I just reread the older posts and found a fun thing in mcsm's last text about angels and demons not being a faceless force of nature. Maybe they are both? From what I know about angels, they are able to appear from out of nowhere - perhaps they are a faceless diffuse energy that can convert into matter? 100 years ago an unknown physicist named Albert Einstein found out that energy and matter are the same thing...

About the "good/evil" thing: Good point, electriczax! I don't think a human can ever be only good or only evil. Some come close to one of the extremes, but they can never be completely good or completely evil. But maybe mcsm was talking about supernatural forces? If so, it sounds a lot more reasonable.

Three things I have noticed while writing.
1) I don't like using "he/she" ([\i]gendering[i], if this word exists in English language) because it is horribly confusing and unneccessary and I have seen how to take it too far (in German it appears a lot more often because male and female words have different endings, unlike in English). I like the old generic masculine and I hope no one hates me for that.
2) I talk a lot about Christianity and not about other religions. The reason is that I simply don't know them well enough to use them in my argumentation. I guess most of what I say is true at least for the other world religions too.
3) These three points are only for clarification, but I fear they will cause even more questions to pop up. Whatever, I like discussions.

@mcsm: Didn't see your last post, sorry
Regarding the "true Christian": If you don't believe in some kind of God, I don't think you can be strong enough to follow the rules. And if you do follow the rules, but call yourself atheist, you only don't notice that you believe in something.

Your quote is interesting. While I wouldn't call the Bible's history accurate, I think it is also important to learn about it as a basis of the culture we are living in. No one should be forced to believe in something, but our culture is strongly based on the bible as well as our morals (which you or this famous non-Christian already mentioned)

mcsm, yes, it is exactly like a Force. It is faceless, because it doesn't have a physical form. And about consciousness... I have no idea ^.^ In my belief it doesn't have one. Also there is no Heaven or Hell you go to when you die. The Heaven and Hell are here on Earth, depending on how you live your life. Take a look around and see how many people are suffering... they live lives full of torture, pain and suffering. (I'm getting off the point again). About your questions:
It doesn't influence or interfere with our lives. It is there and if we want - we use it (by believing in it). If there's an apple tree next to your house it won't interfere with what you do in your life, but if you want you can go and grab an apple to refresh yourself. It's kind of the same thing.
People don't admit it's there, because a lot of them imagine God as only the Christian understanding of God. They don't believe in life after death, they don't believe in that big guy that watches you all the time, so there's no God. Another reason is pure psychological - if you really believe (or should I say - if you believe correctly) in God you understand, that you are the largest reason for everything in your life. And it is muuuch easier to say "it's that guy's fault" instead of looking at what is not working in your life, taking responsibility and working on yourself. It takes a lot of effort and concentration, so it's easier to say that there's no God and blame something outside of you.

You're right. It's easy to follow the rules, but once you understand why to follow them, the things get much easier. I remember how I used to solve parameter math problems for more than 3 years just because I knew how to solve them. I even went to math competitions... and in my last grade I understand what exactly is a parameter and why the problems are solved the way they are .

I believe that Christ has existed. I knew people with powers and SailorVenus know that guy that can see people's energies/chakras and heal them with touch. And even it he hasn't existed there's this thing - the Bible teaches of a lot of things. It may get lost in translation, but "If you knock, the doors will be opened", "If you want, you will receive", "Every bad thing happens for a reason" and a lot more. It teaches of love, tolerance and many more values. And instead of understanding them and use them in our lives we argue about the existence of God. I don't know about the Bible being taught at school, but the values from it should be. It is much more important to be taught HOW to live (and be able to do everything you want from there on) than being taught some facts and skills and be left on your own in the big world.

And one last thing - Religion is the way you feel about the world. What you believe is true. If you don't believe in anything, that's your religion. If you believe in Krishna, that's your religion. If you believe that Master Potato has come to build the pyramids and create Hammerfest, while Mother Letuce has created the trees and pillows, that's the religion you have. The problem comes when people don't think and define their own religion (beliefs), but mindlessly follow a preacher. Just like when you study something in school for an exam and a week later you don't know anything of it. You don't get into it. You don't understand it. And problems begin to emerge behind every corner.

30191, I agree. Everything comes from love. I believe that if God/Jesus wants something from us that is two things - 1. be happy and 2. don't (deliberately) hurt other people. From there you can expand to the 10 commandments and every rule you have. Love is a thing that is missing the most among us. At first place people don't love themselves (because they are taught that this is Egoism, egocentric, narcissism, etc.) and if you don't love yourself your love to other people becomes messed up. So you don't love yourself, you don't love your neighbors, and that expands to the rest of the world.
You are right about the other Religions - they mostly peaceful. Usually the evil parts are wrong interpretation of their teachings like "I'm your only God" and people decide to kill everyone that obeys other Gods.

The thing about science vs religion is just like evil vs good. They coexist. Things are not only physical (science) or energy (religion). I guess you know how human is 'created'. It starts with one cell that splits into two, then into 4, then 8 and in a matter of time the cells become thousands of billions and form the human body, which grows and grows and develops in a certain way. Can you explain to me how exactly that pattern of humanness is followed if there's Nothing to guide it. Humans may have evolved from monkeys, I don't care about that theory, but the energy that enables people and animals to adapt and evolve still exist. I just thought of something like an automobile. Science - you put gasoline in the tank, you turn the key, press the pedals and the car is moving. The spiritual part is all the small details that stay underneath and around the act of driving. The way the engine and turbines work. The way the gasoline is turned into energy that makes the wheels turn and drive the car. The way a car is part of the rest of the movement on the highway and if a car stops it will cause some trouble to the rest of the traffic. The car will work even if you don't understand how exactly it works and the same way you are able to live regardless of what you believe in. But if you understand the deeper layers of car driving (or life) you will be able to fix your car (life) when it gets broken.

I don't understand what you mean with your concept of God. The laws are discovered (a lot of them are in the Bible) and they may be calculable (as you say), because when you use the laws you are able to live happy and profitable life without pain and struggling. And yet - most people don't do it... and still how come this means that there is no God at all? I'm not sure about that human feelings can't be predicted. In most part if you see something cute you'll like it. If you see something lovely (love between two people) your heart will fill with love. If you see something terrible you will feel bad about it. If someone is irritating you, you'll get mad... but at higher level you may learn to control those emotions, like when someone is not treating you well you don't get mad, because you know that it's not your problem. It's this guy's. He doesn't love himself. He's lacking love and understanding. He has issues that make him act bad... and you don't have to suffer because of that.

Energy and matter are the same thingI agree . Matter (let's say people) is made of cells, which are made of molecules, made of atoms, made of protons and neutrons, made of subatomic particles, made of... nothing. There's a HUGE space between two subatomic particles and that space is empty. It's energy. The God that hold those particles together and holds objects whole, not falling apart. The greatest minds on Earth understand that God and that's why they were able to accomplish what they have.

About what you said to mcsm - for many years I was like that. I didn't believe in God (as I didn't have any proof that there is such thing), but I wanted to be a good guy and I didn't make other people suffer (deliberately), I was helpful, etc. So I believed in good in people and wanted to make the world a better place . Also about the Bible - Andy Andrews is an author that I discovered recently and his books remind me of the Bible - they have the stories of people that have superpowers (like Jesus did) or experience unbelievable things and through that book you learn different things about how to live your life properly. How everything has a different point of view; how you can achieve anything you want if you believe in yourself and more. For non-believers the simplest explanation to the Bible is the same - it's just a book, like every other book in the world, written by Jesus Christ and he is trying to teach the people of the world how to become better people, how to live happy life and not hurt other people. And he has the rules to that in his book, called Bible. Feel free to use that explanation to all people who are STRONGLY against God and Christianity. It will make much more sense for them and they may actually read it and get some nice principles for their lives.

I'm afraid you don't understand Jesus very well. That's okay, but you should know that I believe He is the Son of God, and He came to save us (by dying on the cross to pay for our sins/evil) because 'nobody's perfect' and Romans 6:23 (King James Version (KJV)) says, (verse 23) "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
He also came back to life, defeating Hell so that we could be with Him, and He could honestly say that He suffered all the troubles we have. So the argument that He doesn't understand what's happening/happened to you doesn't work. He does understand, and literally went to Hell for you. Most of His siblings (yes, Mary and Joseph had 'normal' kids) were ashamed of Him and tried to shush Him once. The government leaders hated His guts (His teaching contradicted their personal interpretations of the law) His friend betrayed Him (and yes, He knew it was going to happen, but it still hurt) and much more. And my last point for now (I'm waiting for my carpool) is this; Jesus fulfilled ALL the prophecies about the Savior. (again, saved US) I dare you to Google 'odds of Jesus fulfilling all prophecies' if you still think He was just a human.

Well, that's your belief and understanding, and that's the kind of explanation people are strongly against. Simply because it cannot be proven. Take a look at all the books about vampires, werewolves, dragons, etc. Imagine something happen and two thousand years later someone find them and found a way to understand English and translate the books in the language they use at that time. They won't know if what is written in the book has really happened. After all werewolves leave a human or wolf body, vampires don't leave a body at all... so for them it may have been true, but we may have killed all of them, so there are no vampires and werewolves at their time.

Why is it so important that I believe in that exact fact? What's better - to believe that God exist and Jesus is his son, but... just that. Or to say 'I don't care what the real facts are, but I learned to be a caring and compassionate person and I will live my life being the best guy I can be'. King James Version may have said a lot of things, but it doesn't make them true for me. I've heard a lot of dumb statements in my life ^_^

I won't google that, because:
1. There is no way to see if these have been all the prophesies. There may have been more, but since he didn't fulfill them they have been disregarded and the ones that have been fulfilled has reached our era. After all - how do you know that The Church that is the reason of torturing, killing and burning thousands of people hasn't erased them? There's no way you'd know that. That's a personal belief and it is just stupid to argue with that.
2. Again - if you read something in a book doesn't mean it has happened for real. I can write a book about a prophet that says what's going to happen and then a sequel of that book - about Jesus that makes those things happen. How do you know it's true? You don't. You just believe in it.
3. Even if those events has really happened - Moses lived, Jesus lived, etc. How do you know he had really conquered Hell? There are people who are able to see the future (people energies are like a river - they follow the river bank. And unless something happens things dropped in the river follow the flow) so there has been someone with that 'power' thousand years ago. Also there are people who can see and heal people's energy. Jesus may have been one of them. You don't know. You just believe in that. It's your decision. I have chosen to follow the rational path, because the other one pushes people away. When I say "God is real, read the Bible and follow his rules" people usually don't listen, do nothing and avoid me. When I say "It may or it may not be true. It doesn't matter. But there are very good words of wisdom in that book. Read it, find them and use them in your life, and your life will become better" and people listen. Because there's no collision between our beliefs (egos). So even if I really do believe in the same thing - I will still use the same way of explanation to others, because this way they will listen and they will become closer to God, even if they don't believe in it.

What? You can't prove history. Scientifically, it is not testable or repeatable. Was there a Jesus of Nazareth? Was there a census issued by Caesar Augustus? Well, yes to both. It's impossible to say one is proven and the other is not, because both have been proven as much as can be proven. The census was taken the same time He was born.

Luke 2:1 "In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the entire Roman world. 2 (This was the first census that took place while[a] Quirinius was governor of Syria.) 3 And everyone went to their own town to register."

Nazareth happens to be the city/birthplace of (king) David. (a prophecy said the Messiah would come from his family line and city *cough cough*) Joesph was born in Nazareth, but His parents were living in Galilee, a long way off. That's why He is referred to as both Jesus of Nazareth and Jesus the Galilean.
Why do people believe ancient historians on the census, but not so much on the topic of Jesus? Fact is, He did exist.
Also, I'd like to apologize. I suppose I could plead faulty translation, but I just never looked at this question closely enough to state a definite answer. Thank you, and thank goodness for internet!



'Question: "Did Jesus go to hell between His death and resurrection?"

Answer: There is a great deal of confusion in regards to this question. This concept comes primarily from the Apostles' Creed, which states, “He descended into hell.” There are also a few Scriptures which, depending on how they are translated, describe Jesus going to “hell.” In studying this issue, it is important to first understand what the Bible teaches about the realm of the dead.

In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means the “place of the dead” or the “place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek word that is used for hell is “hades,” which also refers to “the place of the dead.” Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicate that sheol/hades is a temporary place, where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection and judgment. Revelation 20:11-15 gives a clear distinction between the two. Hell (the lake of fire) is the permanent and final place of judgment for the lost. Hades is a temporary place. So, no, Jesus did not go to hell because hell is a future realm, only put into effect after the Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

Sheol/hades is a realm with two divisions (Matthew 11:23, 16:18; Luke 10:15, 16:23; Acts 2:27-31), the abodes of the saved and the lost. The abode of the saved was called “paradise” and “Abraham's bosom.” The abodes of the saved and the lost are separated by a “great chasm” (Luke 16:26). When Jesus ascended to heaven, He took the occupants of paradise (believers) with Him (Ephesians 4:8-10). The lost side of sheol/hades has remained unchanged. All unbelieving dead go there awaiting their final judgment in the future. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes, according to Ephesians 4:8-10 and 1 Peter 3:18-20.

Some of the confusion has arisen from such passages as Psalm 16:10-11 as translated in the King James Version, “For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption....Thou wilt show me the path of life.” “Hell” is not a correct translation of this verse. A correct reading would be “the grave” or “sheol.” Jesus said to the thief beside Him, “Today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus’ body was in the tomb; His soul/spirit went to the “paradise” side of sheol/hades. He then removed all the righteous dead from paradise and took them with Him to heaven. Unfortunately, in many translations of the Bible, translators are not consistent, or correct, in how they translate the Hebrew and Greek words for “sheol,” “hades,” and “hell.”

Some have the viewpoint that Jesus went to “hell” or the suffering side of sheol/hades in order to further be punished for our sins. This idea is completely unbiblical. It was the death of Jesus on the cross and His suffering in our place that sufficiently provided for our redemption. It was His shed blood that effected our own cleansing from sin (1 John 1:7-9). As He hung there on the cross, He took the sin burden of the whole human race upon Himself. He became sin for us: “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21). This imputation of sin helps us understand Christ's struggle in the garden of Gethsemane with the cup of sin which would be poured out upon Him on the cross.

When Jesus cried upon the cross, “Oh, Father, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46), it was then that He was separated from the Father because of the sin poured out upon Him. As He gave up His spirit, He said, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit” (Luke 23:46). His suffering in our place was completed. His soul/spirit went to the paradise side of hades. Jesus did not go to hell. Jesus’ suffering ended the moment He died. The payment for sin was paid. He then awaited the resurrection of His body and His return to glory in His ascension. Did Jesus go to hell? No. Did Jesus go to sheol/hades? Yes.'

Note: I copied and pasted this from a website. Also, a common catchphrase 'He has conquered death' has slipped into 'He has conquered death AND hell'. Which just misleads people. Revelations 1:18 may have had something to do with this misconception.
“I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”

just a nice pic

When put that way it is much more understandable and close to reality. But it still teaches of separation of God and Men. We are all part of God. We all have God in ourselves. He is our creator/father and we are all his sons/daughters. All religions teach the same:
(may get lost in translation)
Christianity: We have God's kingdom within ourselves.
Islam: Who knows himself, knows God.
Buddhism: Look inside of you. You are Buddha (The enlightened one)
Confucius-ism: Heaven, earth and human are one whole.
Yoga: God lives inside of you as you.
Vedanta: Atman (Individual consciousness)and Brahman (Universal consciousness) are one.
Upanishads: Understanding Self, human knows the whole Universe.

And there are many more... so if you take a look at it that way - Jesus existed. And he was the prophesied child. And he was son of God... but so are we . However we don't believe in our own powers and thus we can't do as good as Jesus did. I truly believe that people are able to live as long as they wish, but those who are that open to God and have achieved that kind of power... they just don't want to. It's like if you're staying in the same class to learn the material. When you learn everything there is to learn you don't want to stay there any longer - you advance to the next one.

Alright, before I go any farther, I think I should backtrack a little bit. Before you can say 'I am a child of God' or 'You are god' or 'God is a force you can use', we need to define God. So, back to good vs. evil. It's pretty much accepted that Satan is evil, period. That he is completely evil, right? But he is not human. We've already established that humans can try to be completely good or completely evil. (I think humans can act completely evil, because it's hard to follow the rules, but it's not hard to break rules. What's hard is not getting caught.) God is not human either. So the question here is this. Is God completely good?

If you ask this question, I think you need to define "good" and "evil". I guess all of us have a similar idea of these words' meanings, but the "good" god Christians usually believe in is a quite complex character. Consider the theodicy problem - if God is a completely good god (as he is supposed to be in Christianity), why does he allow war, suffering and so on?
And how about humans vs animals? For example if God put an end to overfishing, it would certainly be a good thing for fish (and for Greenpeace), but it would destroy numerous companies, their workers' lives, and damage many countries' economy. Is this good or evil? The destruction of the Fukushima power plant has led to a lot of useful activity in many countries, but hurt Japan. Regarding this as an act of God, was it a good or evil thing?
Or is it good to kill someone if it saves others? God could have killed Hitler (sorry about this, but it is the easiest example), but he has not. Was this an evil act? At least it made us learn a lot.

What I want to say: Whatever happens, in most cases there is the other side of the medal. While an almighty God is considered to be able to do anything possible, he can't do things that contradict logic. And we don't always see this other side.
Of course the same applies to a non-sentient God or any other concept. You may call it fate or coincidence - it's still somehow the same God.
I guess this God is a good one - perfectly good, but with the said restraints. But maybe this is only what I want to believe?

In other religions the situation can be different - I think monotheistic gods are always good, but if you have several gods, they tend to have different tasks and usually not all of them are good, at least partly.

Another thought: You say Satan is completely evil. Philosopher Ludwig Feuerbach once published his projection idea - simply put, he says God is a projection of all the good things we want to be. This means that Satan is this kind of projection too, but the opposite of God. So if Satan is completely evil, God must be completely good as this is the opposite of evil.